Sunday, 28 June 2009

Angels and Demons

When I started writing this I thought I will write a movie review but my mind, as always, dragged me towards a broader, more appropriate approach in presenting, rather questioning what was showed in the movie, or the book as a matter of fact.
I think the story apart from depicting the fight between science and religion, church and the Illuminati, Langdon and the mysteries also raises a subtle question.
"Did such things happen before? Was there someone like Camerlengo Patrick McKenna (Ewan McGregor's Character in the movie) before who tried to make-up a story of faith in order to strengthen the faith of the followers, to stop people from turning away from their religion? If not a single man(or woman) then a group of people. Or simply does our faith today stand on the foundation of falsity?"
If the answer is NO, the question is "Are you sure?"
If the answer is YES, then "Uh-oh!"

Every person,today, is emotionally attached to their religion, and their religion could be "Atheism". They cannot tolerate a word said against their belief even if the question is posed to them in the most respectable and beautiful language and the words dipped in honey. But unfortunately only a handful are "knowledgebly" and "logically" attached to their system of belief. Nobody reads the scriptures of their own religion leave apart reading that of others.

Anyways, my question was whether the scriptures or related works we have read or will read are not just another "made-up" story. A question very difficult to answer but not impossible. There is always a logical and mathematical approach to truth and truth is never illogical. Logic should never be kept in the cupboard while learning religion. Sooner or later we will be able to relate the events and logic. One example that I can suggest is worshipping more than one God. Was one God not sufficient or was it necessary that God takes so many forms so that humans can imagine better. Is it not another made-up story by different people around the world, at different times and places for material and social profits? Polytheism seems illogical to me.

Another way of ensuring that we dont fall for a false story would be comparision. Comparision between two statements made on the same topic would tell us if there are any contradiction and a contradiction always points towards human intervention. To err is human, remember. But the statements should be chosen wisely, in context, for comparision. You cannot compare a monotheist religion and polythiest religion on the number of Gods they pray and say that they are opposite and so both are errors. You should compare points within the same belief. Simlarly you cannot quote out of context and say that Krishna in Bhagwad Gita persuades Arjuna to kill his brothers. As I said, a wise decision should be made while comparing.

Another way of approaching would be using probability. If you dont understand a point of view it is not always necessary that it is illogical or made up. Say if eight of the ten points made seems logical to you and remaining two points doesnot make sense then probability would suggest that the remaining two points are also 80% logical. But again wise decisions should be made in choosing the points. Also a probablity is a "probable" entity. Wisdom will help here.

Scientific developments and historical dates are another tools that can be used.

But again I will come back to my first point... to relate the verses logically, to compare them or to apply probability have we read or learnt enough?


  1. Religion is always tied up with belief, Not truth because no one knows truth or truth(truth here is a "a fact that was not made up!") was not carried logically from the past. It was carried out with a bunch of words which may or may not be the facts. So is the reason for the first question, the analysis and the last question too...

    When comes the first question in mind, An individual has only two to choose from. To start with a belief or not to think further! Many choose the former. A few choose choose the later when they want life to be based on proven facts... and also when comes the last question in mind. :)

  2. Afaq, glad to see your opinion.

    Religion and Science have been in a tumultous relationship which I would term as sibling rivalry.

    They could seldom live together peacefully in a human habitat. The last few centuries have, in particular seen this rivalry take magnonimous proportions always resulting in universal destruction.

    Thankfully, we have reached a point where very little is left to get destroyed.


  3. I’m still not clear of the point tat ur tryin to make here. Is it ur questioning tat Should we believe and follow the scripts that has been written or rather portrayed in the movie which u saw recently, or do u stand by the science and say all the scripts written are either false or misinterpreted or go against the very logical science.

  4. ur blog is gud............yaar

    Neither am I telling to follow your scripts blindly nor am I telling that they are against science and don't follow it.

    My question is "How can you identify whether scripts are not changed time to time by humans just to increase their numbers or to save their numbers from being decreased?"

    And I try to answer it by giving a few techniques. Above all is just a suggestion to READ!

    thanks for reading and replying.

  6. Polytheism seems illogical to me ????

    It might be my prospective of looking at the same point but just wanted you to think from this angle as well

    I dont know how many of them believe in God... but i guess most of them would agree with me if i jus said there is some supreme power above all of us..

    When you dont know what it is like.. and if i have a form to which i can compare which has been good to me...i dont think there is something wrong in it..

    Lets say i have a watch which is lucky to me... and give me immense confidence whenever i wore it...

    Why can't i see ... that supreme power in it..

    This might not be religion... its just a faith which i personally have..

    All the forms of Atheism that u just mentioned..might be documented form of one's own belief.

    Nobody asks you to follow it...Its just upto you to identify and follow what you like to.. something already suggested by someone or you find a form of that power of your own..

    I dont know how this would change ur thinking.. but would like to see what you have on this...

  7. Afaq to Mr.Unknown13 July 2009 at 01:47

    Afaq to Mr.Unknown:
    First thing, I give some points then you give some others points will lead us nowhere... Let us finish one before moving to others..
    My Question in the post was Is more than one God necessary? meaning if God has a supreme power why is it required that there are more than one who have equal/divided supreme powers?? can reply to problem.

    Coming to your view point:
    Feeling your watch is lucky for you and attribting supreme powers to it are two different things.
    1.something/someone having supreme powers implies it can do anything but your watch(as an example, could be a stone,snake anything) cannot even tick by itself, it requires an external power source to live. Question is who is giving the power to something having supreme power?
    2.Your watch will stop working somtime(probably you will throw it then and move on with another watch),did the supreme power transformed it energy into something else or its power is dead too?
    3.this leads to chaos and confusion as there are many people in the world and each will give attribute to anything and call it a god.
    4.Supreme Power not only gives but also takes. My watch gives me confidence but my hat takes away my confidence. It is not only that God always is positive with you but also tests you sometimes by giving hardships. So in this case my hat should also have supreme power..getting my point?

    My questions in the above points are not meant for derogatory remarks but simply questions...

    So my conclusion would be attributing anything that has a beginning, and limited knowledge with Godly Powers is not logical...
    God can only be one, the unseen, most powerful.

    I have come across this argument before and thought over it before..FYI.

    Finally..I agree with your point that Nobody asks you to follow it but it is upto you to decide it wisely and if you have read the blog carefully I only suggested that only reading with an open mind would help you chose wisely...

    Hope I made my point..your turn :)

  8. Is more than one God necessary? meaning if God has a supreme power why is it required that there are more than one who have equal/divided supreme powers??

    Necessary... what do you mean by that word...
    necessary for you , necessary for the world..?? or necessary for the God???
    If its for the world/God. then you are very small to comment on that..

    "Why is it required "

    What are you trying to tell by this..
    Dont forget its never the God who is trying to take many forms.
    Your speech questions the God for having soo many forms which is simply irrelavent.

    All you need to understand is...

    There is only one God , one supreme power (what you called Atheism). You believe in one form and someother believe and see it in another form.

    The question comes'' why do you need to see it in another form, what's the necessity' ??
    Answer is simple... when we dont know the exact form of the supreme power.. you cannot complain people for not having the same thought and same form in all of their minds...

    Now i hope u got ur answer for why we have many forms ???

    Coming to the watch..

    Yes i agree, watch needs power to run and cannot run by itself hence i cannot consider that as a super power...

    I guess i dont have any hard and fast rule written that tells me to consider only unlimited, never ending, self luminous things as my luck....

    Simple sense... if you say that i m foolish for considering such thing as God.. i reply would be .. that's my belief of a supreme power and what's wrong if that doesnt matches with your's.

    Comming to the last point...

    "reading with an open mind ""

    Very strange.. what does that mean now..

    1. Accept what ever you said is correct, To go by what you believe rather than thinking on my own??

    2. To not question what is written ??

    Its up to you to decide who is not open to the ideas.

    I would do 2 things if i had to write something.

    1. Think a bit more and wider before writing something.
    2. Not try to impose....try to be gentle and general.

    There are two ways of telling the same thing.. lemme give you an example.

    1. I like Rice for my lunch. Why would there be the necessity for anyone to go for someother thing when we have rice so abundant in this part of the world.

    2. There are many food items that can be had for lunch amongst which i personally prefer rice.

    Ball in your court my friend.

  9. Afaq to Mr.Unknown14 July 2009 at 01:17

    Afaq to Unknown:

    God doesnt require/depend on anything and everything requires/depends on God.

    My question was not "Why do people worship so many different, tangible forms of Gods ?" for which the answer is in my blog itself.IT is "another made-up story by different people around the world, at different times and places for material and social profits". Also as you said I cant complain of different people having different imaginations.

    My question was "Why do people have to worship so many different forms of God when they can worship one shapeless God? It is not very difficult to imagine praying to a God without any shape." In short my statement was "Man-made forms of God is not God but only a false deity. Worshiping Idols is worshiping something else but God."
    This question you tried to answer previously by giving the example of a watch.
    I gave you four logical points why a watch cannot be a God and you agree with it. But at the same time you say that that's your belief that watch(an example, again could be anything here) is God and there is no wrong in it. This is an illogical way of answering anybody. You cannot agree with my point and your point simultaneously because we are talking completely opposite. Give me any logical reason as i gave you four. I am asking you to question your belief.

    Yes, you can consider anything in the world to be your luck but you cannot attribute the powers of God to that thing.

    "Read with an open mind"
    He got me wrong here..i didnot mean reading my article here but reading the scriptures, your scriptures and my scriptures. And yes you have to question what is written but not with a partial mind. Open to all.

    I dont get how to compare your rice example with God, If you can elaborate that.

    Lastly dude...
    "There is only one God , one supreme power (what you called Atheism)."
    This statement of yours suggests two things:
    1.You have very little knowledge of God, if not English.
    2.You dont even bother to open a dictionary, keep aside of me thinking that you have read some scriptures.

    Atheism='Disbelief in the existence of God'
    I never said that one who believes in one God is an atheist. That is absurd.
    Atheist is one who doesn't believe in God.

    in my blog this is my statement:"Every person,today, is emotionally attached to their religion, and their religion could be "Atheism""
    Meaning there religion could be that they have no religion. Thats why Atheism is in quotes.

    Anyways, its good that we are arguing in respectable manner. Hope to hear from you again.
    But again before raising another points first lets close the points above. If not I am glad to continue it forever. :)

  10. scriptures.. scriptures.. scrpitures..

    what are these scriptures???

    I am really sorry.. i never read that book.. which said that

    all these scriptures which you said i have never seen,read or heard about

    are all written by God' himself...

    I thought all of them were written by men, people just like you and me.

    When i say people it means people (people can never ever ever be God).

    If you talk all this based on some scripture which were written by some people on what they saw, on what they belive and what they

    follow then i leave it to you. I never know if God came down some day and told them all this while others were sleeping.

    ( I mean the people who still believe that its not what you worship , its what you believe in is God )

    I just go by the feeling that what ever does good to me ,anything that gives me the faith, gives me confidence to move ahead,

    something that motivates me to do more and more are all God's. (parents, stones, stars whatever )

    Its never the question of " what's the difficulty in worshiping something without having a specific form".

    You follow, you tell, you write ,you talk about what some other person has written or believed which i dont think could be correct always.

    If you define God with the four points what someone else feels and u think is rite..

    i might have a different idea of it which i feel is correct .. its acceptable either way.

    I hope atleast after this you agreed for the below mentioned points.

    1. There is no clear definition for God ( 4 pts, 5 pts whatever ). Its only upto you to define whatever points you feel.
    2. Scriptures are just writings by some other people on what they felt was correct. Its not true if i say what that guy felt was rite
    would work for me all the time.
    3. If you worhship some idol / thing as God. It doesnt mean i have difficulty or problem to imagine an un imaginary form of the supreme power.It means that i like to see it this way and no one can blame me on that..

    Give me a confirmation saying that you agree for all the 3 points mentioned above.. and we end it rite here... what say dost???

  11. Afaq to Mr.Unknown14 July 2009 at 03:19

    Afaq to Mr.Unknown:
    So basically you believe in ,
    "Everything (thats positive for u) is God"

    And I believe,
    "Everything in the universe (good or bad) is God's" i.e with an apostrophe 's'.

    And you dont want to read scriptures because you believe that it was all written by man.

    I say you never know until you read them. (Infact my blog was basically about testing the authenticity of one's scriptures)
    And a suggestion, Reading never harms. :)

    1. Definition of God:
    this reminds of verse from Holy Quran which is basically definition of God; its like this:

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    4. And there is none like unto Him.

    If anybody/anything fits this definition i will believe he is God. You may say I dont believe this definition, I say think on each point as why it shud be right/wrong...positive and negative testing you see. :)

    2.Two people thinking two completely opposite things => only one of them is right, because truth stands out clear from falsity.

    3.You can believe what ever you wish, no one has a right to blame or tease or abuse you. Its just that while I was questioning myself about my belief I asked a question about your belief.

    this is not gonna end, he he, :P

  12. Okie... i think i got my answer...

    At last you have agreed to what i was telling...

    1. You agreed that believing in "Everything in the universe is God's" is your version of it and what i told cannot be proved wrong. Goood.

    2.You jus said 'Reading Never harms'. Its good to read what others have written ..'Its good' the word says it all. Its not mandatory, its not the only thing. You can tell that one is rite and the other is wrong but you cannot prove to me that what you are telling is the truth. Goood.

    3. Now that you have agreed that its not a problem of someone if he/she is worshipping different forms of God. Its just his belief.You said all this based on what you believed. Goood..

    Even when i asked you for the confirmation , i never expected straight simple answers with a yes or a no.
    I expected some lengthy response in which i had to search for my answer.

    I think i was able to do that..

    Friend .... I would not agree with you statement that ' this is not gonna end'....cos this has ended...


  13. Afaq to Unknown14 July 2009 at 13:42

    I never agreed to your points, so please dont give statements like "You have agreed"

    I said "Everything is God's" is my belief.
    But I did NOT say that "Everything is God" (without apostrophe s) cannot be proved wrong. It can be proved wrong.

    Reading is good. But again by reading one can prove whether a particular thing is truth or not. It can be deduced.

    Third point i would say yes, you can believe whatever you want, but then again i can say i have the right to ask questions in a respectable manner. This way i can try to deduce truth and simultaneously make you to question.

    Thanks dude.

  14. hmm... intresting... very intresting.

    i don't think i have enough exposure to comment on this topic.... however... intreting very intresting indeed... :D


So..What's your point?


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